VP Pence details plans for Space Force

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 08/09/2018 at 11:50 • Filed to: None

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Would you like to know more?

The creation of a new branch of the military — the first since the Air Force was created in the wake of World War II in 1947 — could require a significant reorganization of the Pentagon. And some officials within the military and national security communities fiercely oppose the idea. The Air Force in particular might lose key responsibilities. The proposal would also need Congressional approval.

In the meantime, White House officials have been working with national security leaders to aggressively move ahead without Congress. The first step would be to create a U.S. Space Command by the end of the year, a new combatant command that would have dedicated resources, be led by a four-star general, and be tasked with defending space, the way the Pentagon’s Pacific Command oversees the ocean.

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LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 11:57

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Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 11:59

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Have you ever read the book? It is about 50% political commentary by volume. I need to read it again as I do not recall the direction Heinlin was leaning. It would be interesting to read in todays crazy world.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:01

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no.. i would not like to know more:p

im still busy laughing at europe planning to keep on trading with iran and setting up funds to compensate for american sanctions

awaiting impending tweet storm

i can only handle so much news at a time

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/09/2018 at 12:02

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I have not read the book, but my relationship with Heinlein is not a good one. I have yet to finish one of his books. 

ttyymmnn > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 08/09/2018 at 12:02

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LOREM IPSUM > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 08/09/2018 at 12:03

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F'real? That sounds exceedingly unwise.

InFierority Complex > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:03

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Bro that’s the Mobile Infantry not the Fleet thoooooo

WilliamsSW > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:04

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Yeah this sounds like a great way to use taxpayer funds. Way to drain the swamp, i diots. 

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:05

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Whatever happens, it should be law that any guns in space should go “pew pew”

facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:06

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I’m torn on the whole Space Force thing. On one hand, I think it is naive to believe that we can keep space from being militarized, and that if we don’t our rivals eventually will.  B ut I also don’t think it is a great look for us to lead the way, that this is just creating more bureaucracy, redundancy, and unhelpful inter-service rivalry (there’s no reason why the Air Force can’t continue to handle space, rename them the Air and Space F orce if you must ), that it will end up diverting money that would better be spent on civilian space programs to the military, and that ultimately, it’s a vanity project for Trump.    

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:07

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Starship troopers has quite a bit of fast action interspersed with strange introspective thoughts... for pages and pages. It’s worth it to finish but can be trying at times.

WilliamsSW > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 08/09/2018 at 12:07

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Dude that’s just the laws of physics that make guns in space go pew pew

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:07

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My wife loooves that movie.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/09/2018 at 12:08

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I agree with you on all points. This is more of an “America Fuck Yeah!” thing, another photo op of getting things done from a president who can’t get things done. I think it would be much better to develop capabilities quietly and not make such a big deal out of it. 

ttyymmnn > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 08/09/2018 at 12:10

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For what it is, it’s fine. If you go into it expecting very little you will not be disappointed. 

LOREM IPSUM > InFierority Complex 08/09/2018 at 12:10

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farscythe - makin da cawfee! > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:10

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45098031

lone_liberal > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:10

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I was astonished to find out that some people don’t get that Starship Troopers (the movie) was a satirical comedy. Some people actually think that it’s a straight action flick. The fact that the “heroes” end up wearing very Nazi-esque uniforms doesn’t even phase them. 

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:12

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So, I’ve seen people making fun of the President as if he believes a Space Force is needed to protect against aliens or other imaginary foes, a la Starship Troopers . T his article brings up the point that we have real interests in space having nothing to do with extraterrestrial threats.  From reading it,  it seems that the real issue is not whether or not we should reorganize our military to better protect our assets in orbit, but rather how we should do that. The bulk of the criticism seems to be that we don’t need a new branch of the military, with all the overhead that entails, to do that. To have an informed opinion on that topic, I feel like I will have to look back to the formation of the Air Force from an Army air branch and the reasons and rationale for doing that at the time. I wouldn ’t be surprised to find opposition to the idea at the time, but it would be interesting to learn the basis for that opposition and compare it to today’s situation.

3point8isgreat > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:13

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Sorry for the se mi-pacifist rant below. I’m just a really frustrated engineer .

Am I crazy for thinking it’s absolutely ridiculous that a lot of the population went from thinking space is dumb and pointless to suddenly finding it awesome once people can imagine fighting wars there? (Even though the chances of actual humans fighting in space is low in the near future.)

Apparently scientific endeavour and exploration aren’t good enough reasons to go all in on space , but the prospects of blowing stuff up, or even killing other humans, is? When last I checked, science and exploration have played a pretty huge part in advancing human society to the point it’s at. Meanwhile the only advancements I’m aware of war bringing are still technologies (science) that just happen to have non-war applications.

I get that the space race was originally a military effort for the “high-ground” advantage. And I get that pure scientific research isn’t necessarily profitable in its early stages of development, so public funding is probably necessary for really advanced stuff.  But I see no reason why you can’t just fund development directly rather than focusing only on the technologies best suited to killing people more efficiently.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:15

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45115743

and this one too...

Chariotoflove > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 08/09/2018 at 12:15

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I’m not a student of Heinlin, but I never thought that his intent was to create a caricature like Starship Troopers with his story.

DipodomysDeserti > lone_liberal 08/09/2018 at 12:16

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These are the same people that voted for a satirical conservative, not realzing he was a nazi.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:17

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45115743

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45098031

is it a big deal.... dunno.... probably

InFierority Complex > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:17

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Nah, the MI does the dyin , Fleet just does the flyin.

LOREM IPSUM > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 08/09/2018 at 12:17

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*sigh*

I’m with team Trump on this one, not that anyone cares I’m sure.

LOREM IPSUM > InFierority Complex 08/09/2018 at 12:18

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Think ima watch Starship Troopers today, lol.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:19

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It’s so ridiculous.

The underlying political/social commentary saves it some.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/09/2018 at 12:19

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Considering where we are these days, it’s easy to ridicule anything that our president proposes. But I think facw summed up my own feelings about this pretty well:

I’m torn on the whole Space Force thing. On one hand, I think it is naive to believe that we can keep space from being militarized, and that if we don’t our rivals eventually will. But I also don’t think it is a great look for us to lead the way, that this is just creating more bureaucracy, redundancy, and unhelpful inter-service rivalry(there’s no reason why the Air Force can’t continue to handle space, rename them the Air and Space Force if you must), that it will end up diverting money that would better be spent on civilian space programs to the military, and that ultimately, it’s a vanity project for Trump.

nermal > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:21

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It’s great how all of the GODDAM LIBRUL WEENIES keep going on and on about how the Space Force is dumb and a complete waste of taxpayer $$$....

....until a Space Nazi Sharknado forms and takes out half the moon, GPS and communications satellites, and thoroughly FUBARs life as we know it. Then all we’ll hear is “Oh no, if only we had a Space Force with Laser-Guided Space-Nukes to take out the Space Nazi Sharknado.... HOW DID NOBODY SEE THIS COMING AND PREPARE?!?!?! #notmypresident”.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:23

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politics mate.... im on team giant meteor... just fucking end it already

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Chariotoflove 08/09/2018 at 12:27

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Correct, I think the story line was a bit of satire and commentary regarding the militarization during the cold war.

LOREM IPSUM > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 08/09/2018 at 12:27

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Truth.

duurtlang > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:29

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It’s not about what you think about the Obama era Iran deal. You can agree or disagree with that deal, that’s fine. Sensible adults can disagree. What is not fine is how the Trump regime has treated this whole ordeal unilaterally. You can’t back out of treaties you signed that easily, especially not when the direct result is that you’re screwing over your allies at the same time. It makes you an unreliable and backstabbing asshole.

ttyymmnn > 3point8isgreat 08/09/2018 at 12:30

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I think that if we don’t develop defensive (or offensive) capabilities in space then we will find ourselves behind our potential enemies. We’ve already got the capability to shoot down a satellite, and I would wager that in the event that another large war breaks out the very first target will be GPS satellites.

In one of my Aviation History posts, I had a discussion about glorifying machines that were created to kill people more efficiently and in greater numbers. I struggle with this often as I talk about the B-29 for example. It’s unfortunate that so many advances are made in military hardware, but much of that technology, particularly in aviation, has had a direct and world-changing impact on the civilian world. In an ironic twist, NASA was set up specifically as a civilian organization, but its work will have a direct transfer to military applications.

It’s sad that we can’t pursue knowledge for the sake of knowledge, but we are in the deplorable situation where not only has that endeavor been on the decline but we have a government that is openly hostile to science. As much as I’d love to see space, and the Moon, and Mars, and wherever else we eventually go kept out of the hands of the military, I fear that the weaponizing of space is inevitable.

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:33

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As much as I’d like to see space (and the Moon, and Mars, etc) free of weapons, the reality is that our GPS satellites will be the first target of a major war. We are in the unenviable situation of realizing that if we don’t develop capabilities then the other side will. I just don’t understand why we have to make such a big dick-swingning deal out of it. Just develop your capabilities quietly and move ahead.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:34

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so does that mean rebuilding the pentagon to be a hexagon?

LOREM IPSUM > duurtlang 08/09/2018 at 12:34

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Sure you can. Apparently.

But really, I should have kept my yap shut. The world is gonna keep spinning, governments are going to keep doing the opposite of what we would prefer they do at any given moment, and we can chant and vote all we want to no avail . We’re all just fooling ourselves if we think our opinions matter on the global stage, nice as it might feel to think we actually matter.

ttyymmnn > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 08/09/2018 at 12:37

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I hadn’t thought of that.....

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:38

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That would be the wise move.

I mean, I can only assume that the next time Japan is involved in a war, a feet of VOLTRONs are  gonna appear out of seemingly nowhere. And swarms of armed drones. We just don't know it yet.

ttyymmnn > LOREM IPSUM 08/09/2018 at 12:42

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Kaiju or nothing.

LOREM IPSUM > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:48

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The drones would almost certainly appear to be underage schoolgirls, if what I've heard from the intarweb is true.

fintail > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:51

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This is a great distraction, and a nice new avenue for the grifters, Maybe Prince can be appointed to a position.

nerd_racing > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 12:52

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When do we announce that we’ve unearthed the Stargate? 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 13:01

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I’m still curious what capability this thing has.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 13:06

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When I first heard of the space force idea, my initial reaction was that this was a marketing move by Trump, because marketing is what he does, and I still suspect it largely is . But, there are real issues beneath the marketing that need to be discussed. What needs to be done in space? Do we need a separate branch? Can the Air Force do the job perfectly well? Okay, have the conversation. And I do think that if space is going to be militarized (and it will be) then America should lead the way in how it’s done.

It is easy to ridicule the current administration, but the way that is currently happening comes at a cost to us. All the immediate and instinctive scoffing and laughing obscures the underlying issues and drowns out the conversation about them we should be having. It also makes people like me just check out, because we get tired of hearing all the petty nastiness back and forth. Same result, less conversation about the important stuff.

Political satire has an important role in public policy in that it can sometimes strip bare the pretense and affectation that politicians try to use to muddy waters in their favor. But that’s not what it’s being used for now. It’s often accomplishing the opposite, all in pursuit of a few yucks and more clicks.

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 08/09/2018 at 13:07

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Me too. Launch satellites, track satellites, destroy satellites. Somebody knows!

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 13:10

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it looks like a mini shuttle, I bet the payload bay is totally modular and they can do whatever they want, Moonrak er lazzzaaararrrrr!!!

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 13:25

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The first step would be to create a U.S. Space Command by the end of the year, a new combatant command that would have dedicated resources, be led by a four-star general, and be tasked with defending space ...

From what now, exactly?

LongbowMkII > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 08/09/2018 at 13:29

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i used to think it was ridiculous. now... not so far fetched. 

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 13:32

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the construction cost will be YUUUUGGGEEEEEEE

ttyymmnn > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 08/09/2018 at 13:51

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Boeing X-37 . And it stays up in space for more than a year at a time. My guess is that it’s snooping Russian and Chinese satellites, trying to figure out their capabilities.

ttyymmnn > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 08/09/2018 at 13:52

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Russia and China and their satellite-killing capabilities. 

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 08/09/2018 at 13:54

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There can be no discussion when the population is trained to read no more than 140 characters. It forces us into a binary world, and there is no room for nuance. Not that anybody pays attention to nuance any more. 

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 14:01

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Amateur astronomers can track it because it’s a physical object, they have reported it’s position and you can get a little insight from that but as for what it can do, who knows. I know it was over Afghanistan at one point. I am not aware of a Russian space drone. You would have to assume this thing could disable other satellites if they wanted to, if you were going to build something like this that would be on the list I would think . But you can see it so the foreign governments can too, so that could start some shit if they were messing with things other that remotely. 

So Shiney. So Chrome! So Frunky > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 08/09/2018 at 14:04

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Space ISIS.

So Shiney. So Chrome! So Frunky > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 14:04

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Doesn’t the Airforce already do that?

ttyymmnn > So Shiney. So Chrome! So Frunky 08/09/2018 at 14:25

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Yup. Now, to be fair, the USAF wasn’t always its own branch. It started out as part of the US Army, and the US Army Air Forces became so huge during WWII that a separate branch made sense. I have no idea what the AF is doing these days re: space defense, and whether or not they are doing so much that it warrants an entirely new branch of the military. That should be debated and not just announced. Congress will have the last say. I hope.

So Shiney. So Chrome! So Frunky > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 14:31

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Agreed. I just hope it’s not a vanity project like the military parade that never happened. Thus far it has that feeling

3point8isgreat > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 14:58

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I had a serious come to terms moment this spring while searching for a new job. I really wanted to get into the space industry, but felt gross having to apply to defense contractors.

In doing so I kind of got to that same issue you mention of “glorifying machines that were created to kill people”. Which meant realizing my childhood heroes aren’t quite what they seem.

I learned the names and roles for a ton of fighter jets before I learned the alphabet. For example, when I was about 4 or so I wen t to an airshow where I saw, what I think, was an EA-6 Prowler and apparently started telling the pilot standing by it all about the plane. The pilot asked my dad how I knew so much about it. All my toys were planes. It would not be a stretch at all to say that a those implements of war played a huge part in sparking my interest in machines and becoming an engineer.

But then this spring I found myself having to qualify where on the grey area of morality I was comfortable in an effort to just send stuff to space. Or in one case whether I was comfortable even just applying to work at the creators of my childhood dreams, Skunkworks, on a NASA project (Low boom demonstrator).

I guess this is where a lot of my frustration comes from, is the realization that almost all the pinnacles of my profession are for war.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 14:59

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Well I agree with that.  

leicester > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 17:03

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR9N3NOutaQ

bubblestheturtle > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 18:53

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facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 18:54

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So the Trump campaign has posted these possible logos for a space force:

They are all awful, except maybe the the stolen NASA meatball, but they seem like they indicate a goal of militarizing NASA rather than worrying about important issues like how we could protect the GPS constellation in a war with a peer or near peer.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/09/2018 at 19:19

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Considering this is the first part of NASA’s charter:

Devotion of Space Activities to Peaceful Purposes for Benefit of All Humankind .—Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States that activities in space should be devoted to peaceful purposes for the benefit of all humankind.

there should be no resemblance to the NASA logo at all. This shows a distinct lack of creativity, conveys a sense of this whole thing being rushed, and nothing more than a PR campaign. Really, these are terrible logos.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/09/2018 at 19:55

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Also, those logos are just comically bad. It looks like they were done in Powerpoint. The last one implies that we are mustering a Space Force so we can conquer Mars. This is just so f**king amateur.

facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 20:01

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I’ll admit I sort of like the Mars Awaits one, except for the part where it has absolutely nothing to do what you’d want a S pace F orce for . It makes no sense to make going to Mars their driving mission. Maybe someday we will need to protect territory on Mars, but there’s no point in doing that in advance of civilian colonization, which is still very far in the future. In no way does it make any sense as a slogan for the force.

ttyymmnn > facw 08/09/2018 at 20:05

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That would make a neat shoulder patch, but a let’s compare:

facw > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 20:09

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Yep, definitely not in keeping with the other services. At a previous job we did some work with the Missile Defense Agency, and I remember thinking about how terrible their logo was:

But that’s light years ahead of these (despite being awful).

I liked AFRL though:

ONR, not so much:

Edit: The Army seems to have several seals/logos. Obviously there is their square star logo, and I know this is the one that we had among our set of service logos:

(I like the fact it’s sort of recursive, the seal has the flag on it, and the flag has the seal on it)

ttyymmnn > facw 08/09/2018 at 20:16

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Again, that would work very well as a shoulder patch. Logos need to convey strength and command. The Space Force logos look like Atari video games.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > ttyymmnn 08/09/2018 at 20:33

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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/20/pentagon-never-audited-astonishing-military-spending

Hearing stories of 3 family members, 2 at the rank of officer go on on the complete administative mess, I can’t see adding a new branch is going to do anything but mess it up even more.